Dating “Outside” the Church
Garrett Smith | Friday, June 11, 2010 In this article Garrett Smith explores his changing attitude toward dating "outside" of the New Church. Like Meryl Cowley a couple weeks ago in Spirituality in Relationships, Garrett concludes that spanning differences of religious background with romantic interest offers some unique benefits as well as challenges. - Editor
So… who am I, and what does dating “outside” the church mean? First, a little background:
I grew up in about as New Church a family as they come. As a preacher’s kid, I had the privilege of living the gypsy-esque lifestyle that is normal for any preacher’s family—in our case moving from Mitchellville, MD to Westville, South Africa before finally ending up in Kempton, PA. Through these moves, the New Church was always a strong focus in our day-to-day life, and I remember that our family had worship most weeknights at home and went to church pretty much every Sunday (religiously, you might even say).
For schooling, all three of my older brothers ended up going to “normal” public schools—although they might disagree with calling the uniformed, British, all-boys public high school that they went to, “normal.” I on the other hand managed to skip public school all together. Through careful planning, starting as a 5-year-old, I managed to go from Washington New Church School (Maryland) to Kainon New Church School (South Africa) to Kempton New Church School (Pennsylvania) to the Academy of the New Church (Bryn Athyn, PA), finally ending up at Bryn Athyn College of the New Church (Bryn Athyn, PA) for my freshman year and sophomore year of college. (You may notice a common suffix to all of these school titles.)
With religion classes a standard in the curriculums of all of the above, I mention my schooling only as a preface to illustrate the pervasiveness of New Church teachings that I was exposed to by the end of sophomore year in college. The specific doctrine relevant to this particular story, with which, by this stage, I was very familiar, is: you should not marry outside of the church (see, for example, Heaven and Hell n. 378). The very reasonable reason for this being that having the same religion is the most important criteria of which to be sure when getting married. This being the case, it’s probably best not to even date outside of the church.
And so, armed with this knowledge, after ending my final, 15th year of New Church education, I set forth to finish my college degree in the big, bad, secular world of Lehigh University. Astonishing as it may seem, I managed to remain safely single all the way through the final semester of my first year at Lehigh with no effort at all on my part! (The lack of effort may have been partially the reason.) As the second semester of my senior year came around, I was applying for jobs and working hard at not expending any more effort at actual classes; I was certain that with only three months left, there was not nearly enough time to find someone to date at Lehigh. Au Contraire! (All I’ll say at this point is be careful whom you tango with.)
So here I was, dating outside of the church, and man was (is) it fun! Here I had someone who I could agree with and understand on so many different, important topics such as how to treat other people, belief in God, and even the archaic idea that it's best to wait until after you’re married to have sex. (We had both sort of sadly given up a bit on finding someone else who believed that.)
As we walked and talked, naturally religion came up quite a bit and I ran into the first awesome thing about dating someone “outside” the church—you can learn so much about how you view things and what’s really important to you by having to explain your beliefs carefully to someone else when you really want them to understand not only what you believe about things, but why you believe them, too.
So, my new best friend grew up with a strong Christian background and we could talk about and agree on many things, but she certainly didn’t have my engrained New Church perspective or approach and as we continued to date, the question came up in my mind: do we have the “same” religion? This question became even trickier because I was (am) still unclear about what I believe on a lot of issues.
I’d like to take a quick pause for a moment here and verbally appreciate my parents during this time. Even though they strongly believe in the New Church and think it’s the right thing, they have been very supportive in never pressuring me to join the New Church; instead they’d really like for me and whoever I end up marrying to feel comfortable approaching the Lord together from the same religion, whatever that might be.
But what does “having the same religion” really mean? Looking at it one way, you could just say that the bare essentials are all that really matter, which in my mind are: Jesus Christ is the one God—the one source of Goodness, Truth, and Life—and we are supposed to do our best to live as He teaches in the Word every day of our lives. If those two things are the only things that truly are important, then things are all set. But what about other little details like these writings of Emanuel Swedenborg that I grew up with, that I certainly base a lot of my thinking off of, but am still not sure about? Would we need to agree on whether they’re divinely inspired vs. some good thoughts about how to understand the Word better? What about specifics on how kids might be taught and raised? What would the Lord think about this? I don’t know—I’m not sure.
What I think though, that’s a different story. I personally think that those two essentials (The Lord: check. Live good: check) pretty much do the trick. When any two people consider whether to get married or not, there are bound to be differences of interpretation, understanding, and beliefs, even if they grew up as next door neighbors and went to the same church and were taught by the same minister their whole life. The advantage of dating someone whose background is different is that you can’t take anything for granted and really have to consider and challenge everything that you believe.
Dating outside of the church? I’m a fan.
Garrett Smith
Garrett Smith currently resides in Harrisburg, PA where he works as an analyst for the Hershey Company. He is a recent graduate of Bryn Athyn College (’07, AA) and Lehigh University (’09) where he received his BA in Business - Supply Chain Management. To keep himself occupied at his bachelor pad in Harrisburg, Garrett enjoys barbequing with friends, singing with the Susquehanna Chorale, and he is currently participating in the Hershey Area Playhouse’s summer production of Hello, Dolly! He fills his weekends with various trips to hike, bike, or visit friends with his girlfriend. Garrett also likes playing the piano, trying new wines, and LOVES starting extensive debates on religion and politics with those close to him.
Wondering about the inspiration for this article? Look up the New Church, which is based on the theological writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.
Reader Comments (13)
Another very important point is the belief in the eternity of marriage. I know some 'mixed religion' couples, who down the road when things got tough, the New Church partner was saying we need to keep working on this, and the non-New Church partner was just ready to quit. Nothing that was said had any effect, and the marriages ended in divorce. I know that many marriages where both members are at least nominally New Church have ended up the same way. But it does help if both strongly believe that marriage is forever, and it is not to be dissolved lightly. My two cents worth.
Nice article, Garrett. I have never objected to people dating outside of their religion. When I see people dating (no matter what their background) who seem to put something else before the Lord, that is when I feel sad. And clearly you are looking to the Lord in all this!
I don't want to comment on your relationship... but you did write an article and post it, so I am going to respond. :)
For Conjugial Love class in college we had to give two presentations on different topics, so of course I picked "dating" and then religion in marriage.
I did a lot of research in the Heavenly Doctrines, not just in CL, and found so many things talking about how the externals have to be in order. I think a lot of people marrying outside the church say "hey, we pretty much believe the same thing" but baptism is an external. If you believe the same thing, why not be baptized in the same religion? If you don't want to be baptized into the same religion, why not? What is it that makes it so different that you can't go before the Lord and tell Him what you believe about Him and how to live? Of course the too big teachings are The Lord is the one God of Heaven and Earth and live a life of charity to the neighbor. I think a lot of people believe that. I think the "little" things are extremely important too. What about the eternity of marriage? and as you say raising children?
I don't know how you (or others) view the Heavenly Doctrines. But for me,I believe that they are from the Lord! But whether or not you believe that, I believe that a life according to them make people happy. Why not find someone who believes the same?
Anyhow, I have to go, but for me, I'm happy to try dating someone outside the church, but I wouldn't want to marry someone who doesn't love and understand the Heavenly Doctrines like I do!
I love you Garrett, and I can tell you can care tons about this!
Thanks, Garrett! I enjoyed your article.
A quote that immediately came to mind after reading your article (particularly in response to what it means to have the same religion) is Doctrine of Life 1: all religion is of life, and the life of religion is to do what is good.
I do think there are important details to consider, like the ones Alison and Aunty J pointed out, and at the same time if two people have the core of their feelings about religion in alignment with each other, then they have the rest of their lives together to bring the externals of their lives into a marriage. Similar to Aunty J, I believe commitment, or consent, is a crucial factor. If deep in their hearts, two people are relentlessly committed to their relationship with the Lord and their marriage to each other, then that commitment will hold them together through any stormy weather that may come their way on the surface of their relationship as areas of their external lives are brought into alignment with each other.
I have been thinking even more about this....the passages in CL about colds in marriage speak of differences of religion,, one having religion and one not, and also imbibed falsity of religion. I don't think they would be so specific about these causes of cold if it meant you just have to believe in a God and to live nicely. It says, differences of religion. It means differences of religion. Once we start picking and choosing which passages in the Heavenly Doctrines we want to take literally, and which we want to sort of fudge or soften, or merely believe the 'spirit' of, we are getting into dangerous territory. And this is exactly what we are inclined to do to justify certain life style choices. We hunt until we find things that support our position. We have to be sooo careful not to do this, but to find the principles first, and stick to them, and do our best to live accordingly. Having said all that, it is up to the individual to decide what to do about all this. There are many marriages where one partner has come from outside the church, and eventually comes in, and they are very strong marriages. I don't know what to think about the situation when someone raised in the church decides to be a Buddhist, and marries another Buddhist, (insert any other religion in place of Buddhism you like) because of the passage about imbibed falsities of religion. Every religon has elements of truth, and if a person, most likely from the universal influx into the souls of all men that there is a God and that He is one, believes the true things and not the false things in their religion, then I supposed they are in genuine truth. But I don't know...I'd have to ask my husband!
I feel that the MOST important thing is for both people to have a common love and understanding of the Lord and putting him first in our lives, and to have the same morals in life. I have lived for the last 10 years in a none new-church community, until recently. .But I still went to church religiously to include bible studies. And I have to say that I appreciate where I came from for the same reason that was stated above, I had to explain WHAT I BELIEVED IN, not what the church believed, not what my parents believed, but WHAT I BELIEVED!! And if this is with a new love, a new friend, an old friend, I think it is a great learning experience! I have learned so much by being questioned about my faith and beliefs. And it was not an overnight revelation, it has taken me years to feel confident in what I believe and treasure the fact that I get to keep learning the rest of my life. I have always gotten something out church, any church. I honestly feel more rounded in my beliefs because I know what I DO NOT believe!
~Heidi Hennigan, Denver CO
I found this really interesting, mostly because I have had some experience in this area and thus agree wholeheartedly with so much of what you said.
In South Africa, outside of my family, there was basically no one my age who shared my beliefs and values. Even those who had grown up in the Church and supposedly held my same beliefs, were oceans apart from me in how they lived their lives and acted on these 'beliefs'. I grew accustomed to hiding my faith and not speaking much about it or sharing its wonders with anyone, even my friends, because I knew it would not be understood and may even be mocked.
I never thought I could meet someone there, in that environment, and with a non-New Church background who I could actually deeply connect to, and with whom I would finally feel it was safe to speak about my beliefs and my religion. And the fact that I did in many ways still amazes me.
This paragraph you wrote: "As we walked and talked, naturally religion came up quite a bit and I ran into the first awesome thing about dating someone “outside” the church—you can learn so much about how you view things and what’s really important to you by having to explain your beliefs carefully to someone else when you really want them to understand not only what you believe about things, but why you believe them, too." -- I can't tell you how much that spoke for me, how often I have said the exact same thing and been so grateful for the opportunity I had to really test and explore my own beliefs, and the reasons for my beliefs. And I truly believe that that is one marked benefit of dating outside the Church, especially for people who have grown up with a very sheltered NEW CHURCH background.
And the other great benefit is how dating outside the church can begin to lead people to the Church. My friend began coming to church, and he began to read a book my dad had written on marriage in the New Church. And although things ended between us, and we are now purely friends, the beliefs and ideas that he came to appreciate and respect are things he still holds important. And I myself have grown so much in my understanding of my religion, my belief in it and my conviction that religion must be shared in order for a relationship or marriage to be successful.
I never thought I would be interested in someone who was not New Church, I didn't think it would be possible for me to even contemplate dating someone who did not hold these things that were an integral part of me as important. But somehow, it happened, and so so much good came out of it. I do not think that our relationship would have progressed much at all, had he not become interested in the New Church, and I do now, more than ever, believe that religion must be shared (and I do feel that the "little" things matter, they certainly come up!). But, like you said, the definition of the same religion is broad, and in a way, we were already both living much of the same ideas, they just weren't using the same label.
I think dating outside the church is a great thing, because it brings so much opportunity for personal growth as well as potential growth of the Church. And even if it doesn't end in the 'datee' joining the Church; it involves two people learning about and discussing the Lord, how to carry out His will and how to walk a path, together, that will lead to Him. And that, in my mind, cannot be wrong.
(Sorry for such a long response, I got very excited about this! :)
Garrett! great post i really enjoyed your perspective. We need to talk religion sometime - i think we already got our fair share of politics in. thanks for your post
Garrett,
Thanks so much for your article. You have always been someone who I greatly admire for the happy balance you channel from the wisdom of living according to love and its justice.
Be it insight or heresy, I keep feeling deep within me that this talk about "inside the church" and "outside the church" has served a body of people who from holy fear have been moved by the Holy Spirit in the Books of Swedenborg. People speaking of "in" and "out" of the church has served to help confirm the conviction in early seekers that the angelic wisdom written therein is indeed worth following, even if other people say it isn't from the Lord. I see that your question about dating also shares a larger inquiry about the essence and scope of the new church, and I like that. In the narrowest sense, the church will be you and your partner or me and my partner, to eternity. Don't marry outside the church - how about: Don't marry someone the Lord is not leading you to, because He will show you who is for you, from the deepest eternal recesses of your heart to the small stuff which can be bent and played with?
I like your Two Witnesses example. That's the new church! As I see it, the old heaven and old earth passed away, and the imaginary heavens were shown as frauds, and there's a new gospel on the block: The Lord reigns! Not "He should reign" or "Make sure He reigns," but simply, He reigns! Wow. Baptism? Yes. Every Christian knows that is a gateway, for the Lord Himself established it. New Church baptism? No. Baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
I'm a big fan of trust that the Lord just will show Himself, show the Way, show the Life. Thanks for showing forth the Lord in small and big-hearted ways for me, and thanks for your humble and honest article.
Your friend and brother,
Isaac
Ps. Alison, I'm totally agreeing with your view to believe in and confess the Lord in harmony. Aunty J, I love and honor the loving protection you share in your reminder about receiving the Lord's Word at face value and with integrity. Chelsea, your focus on goodness, consent, and commitment brings me big smiles. Tania, I'm getting serious enthusiasm vibes!! Adam, where are you, man?! I think we're way behind! Heidi, thanks for your testimony about the personal growth you've experienced in a wider Christian fellowship! Hey, I like this, it feels like we're all a little family for a moment, family of Garrett, family of the Lord. Bless the Lord, O my soul, and just about everything that is within me.... Ha ha ha...
Thanks for the essay/discussion. Like Garrett, who was a Mitchellville schoolmate of mine once upon a time (though he probably was too little and doesn't remember me!) I was also raised in a very insular New Church environment right up until I branched out to a very liberal university for my last two years of college.
One personal strong feeling on Garrett's topic is irritation at the insular nature of my upbringing, and the culture in BA in general, which seems to divide the world into "New Church" and "outside the Church". While I don't think this always implies a spiritual/moral superiority for those inside the Church, I think it often does. I can't think of many social/human/spiritual divisions that are good for us. In general, we're better off seeking out and appreciating varied perspectives/experiences than we are isolating ourselves from others. This is the path to genuinely strong, well-tested personal principles.
I get particularly fired up about lines being drawn between potential partners due to traditional expectations. My own marriage would have been illegal a few decades ago, but now, thank goodness, most of us see the evil folly of separating people by race. I tend to be leery of rules about who you can and can't allow yourself to connect with.
As Garrett aptly implies in the end of his essay, growing up the "same" religion does not guarantee internal similarity! In the end, we're all just human beings trying to do our best, and both partners being New Church (or Buddhist or whatever) doesn't guarantee your compatibility. People mention the additional challenge of getting to know partners "outside" the Church - but I think we should not skip these careful conversations because we assume a common background in another "New Church" individual. And I do believe that many religions have core principles of God, love, usefulness and charity at heart, meaning that people don't have to have grown up worshiping under the same roof (or be in an official church at all) to have the same good things in their hearts.
Another interesting thing to consider when we comb Swedenborg's passages for guidance on whether New Church members should date someone outside the the Church is that when Swedenborg wrote this, there was not a New Church organization. When he talks about "differences of religion", does he have a particular religion in mind, like for the followers of his revelations? Or does he mean to say in a general sense that, for example, a Muslim shouldn't marry a Christian? Or is he really talking about internal commonalities of faith and spirituality regardless of external religious trappings?
Just want to say that one of the marriages I most admire among my friends is a couple who's been happily married for over 30 years, but who had quite a turbulent start because he is Jewish and she is Catholic (her family disowned her). But they knew they were perfect for each other.
I know I write TOO MUCH, as is always the case on these topics. If you're not tired of listening to me, you can check out an excerpt of my book (about dating, sex and marriage in the New Church), "The Conjugial Culture", on my blog, alainamabaso.wordpress.com.
I know this is an older post by now and that most of the readers and commentators have moved on, but I wanted to say thank you to all who gave input on this article. I had encouraged Garrett to write on this topic when he was first approached about submitting an article, but I was definitely nervous about the feedback it would receive once posted. I have to say, I agree and highly respect all the opinions that were expressed here: from Auny J's admonishment of shared belief in the eternity of marriage and avoiding convenient interpretation of the word, to Alaina's fear that "inside" and "outside" the New Church titles often have a perceived implication of spiritual/moral superiority even if the intention is not thus.
Being the "outsider," I am tempted to defend my position as a grounded Christian, but I don't think it appropriate or necessary here. I do, however, want to publicly acknowledge how wonderful it has been to get to know the New Church doctrine and perspectives, and especially the people I've met through Garrett. Everyone I've encountered in Kempton and Bryn Athyn has been very welcoming of me and my myriad questions. Conversations I've had in the past year on these subjects have been some of the most fulfilling and friendship-forming that I've experience in awhile. So, that is something I thank all of you for, and would highly encourage you to keep in mind: you have good hearts and good convictions, so don't be afraid or negligent of opening up to "outsiders" (in any social context) about your faith.
What fun to go back and revisit this discussion, now that Lauren is a part of the family! I hadn't read the other comments, and I enjoyed them all so very much! Alaina's, Tania's, Heidi's, Chelsea's, Alison's, maybe especially Isaac's! More than anything I believe about marriage, I believe that the Lord will lead us to our partners! ALL of us, and at the right time for us! Sometimes people can be fooled, but maybe not if they are 100% honest with themselves. What this looks like is different for different people, but He wouldn't leave us alone to make such an important decision--or perhaps what I should say, He wouldn't leave us alone to discover what He set up for us at our creation! (I believe in one perfect 'other-half-of-your-soul-mate!) I wouldn't presume to be able to see these things as the Lord can, but the more I get to know Lauren, the more it seems like the Lord has done it again!
Dear friends, I have been married 56 years to my wife and we have attended
a congregational church where we were married and now are attending a Methodist
church. When I was young, I attended Almount church camp and Shirley drove in from
Grand Rapids Mi . to be with me . On Sat.evening, we went to the camp dance and I was dancing with her and the leaders stopped us at midnight and we had been dancing by ourselves since 10:00. everyone said that we belonged to each other.. She never cared for E.SWEDENBORG but I have stayed with the teachings by my self .
What I have found is that the knowledge get stagnet if you have no one to share it with.
I have now begun to share it with my minister and he seems to like it and I have attended classes at church . on how the bible came into our world and the knowledge of Swedenborg has been very helpful .
Thank you, Peter, for your thoughtful comment.
I hope you enjoy the articles you find here and that the NCP website can be a place for you to share your interest in the writings of Swedenborg!
Chelsea Odhner, Editor