Mythbusting: Talking With Spirits. Part 1
Todd Beiswenger | Friday, March 25, 2011 In this three part series, Todd questions how members of a church based on the writings of Emanuel Swedenborg could harbor as much fear about contact with spirits as the New Church seems to. He examines communicating with the other world from a fresh perspective. (Part 2 and part 3 will be published at the end of April). - Editor.
Here we are as a church, with the greatest spiritist of all time as our special revelator, and yet most people I come in contact with are very much conflicted regarding talking or communicating with spirits. On one hand, they LOVE to talk about it, but it is a subject that carries a lot of fear and uncertainty as well. From my point of view, there is something along the lines of an underground conversation regarding spirit contact, something that typically goes like, “I had XYZ experience, but don’t tell anybody.”
So why don’t we tell anybody, or at least tell anybody publicly? I think most of it stems from the general rules in the Writings that we should not be contacting spirits, and that only evil spirits are interested in contacting us. Therefore admitting that you had contact with a spirit means that 1) you did something the Writings warned against (tsk, tsk) and 2) an evil spirit talked to you. What good can come out of that? Maybe none. Maybe lots. Or at least some, some times. The way I read the Writings, it seems there are loop holes or exceptions to these rules.
Those of you who have read my prior articles can probably deduce that I find spiritism and new age stuff terribly interesting. So it should come as no surprise that when I had a trip to LA to preach a couple of weeks ago, I couldn’t resist but to stop into a shop called, “The House of Intuition.” It seemed like a pretty typical new age shop. They sell incense, books, oils, rocks, crystals, and had the obligatory hippie sitting out front smoking something that I was pretty sure wasn’t something I could buy legally. Then again, who knows, it was southern California.
I had time to kill, so I spent some of it talking with the clerk. Marlene seemed normal, and probably about 30 years old. Eventually she commented that she used to be in the trucking industry, and based on a tarot card reading she gave it all up and opened up this shop. She couldn’t be happier she told me. Maybe it was the incense talking, but I don’t think it was. She really did seem happy, and watching her deal with her customers for about 2 hours I saw that she was really good at her job. All because of a tarot card reading. Yet there didn’t seem to be any “consulting the rational” in her thought process.
Similarly another friend of mine really enjoys a book titled The Vortex. Essentially the two authors allow themselves to be possessed by a spirit who calls himself “Abraham” (not the Biblical Abraham). Abraham dispenses his wisdom to all who are willing to listen. Some of it jives with what the Writings teach. But some of it clearly does not. Abraham teaches that there is no God, but that we are all gods in our own right, and there really aren’t evil spirits, just bad thoughts out there that we get tangled up with. These are big things to get wrong.
But Abraham does teach some useful things. He teaches personal responsibility, and that whatever we get in life, we have attracted to ourselves. The teachings are less than perfect, but utilized properly they can be useful. Much like Marlene’s tarot card reading that turned out well, many people are getting some good advice about how to live their life from Abraham, even if he’s got some very important things wrong.
But is Abraham trying to lead us to hell? Possibly. The Writings do warn of spirits who work very subtlety, gently bending us to our own destruction. We are also told that evil spirits really love this world more than their own, so an opportunity to converse with us is quite delightful to them, like a day pass from prison. Based on what I’ve read about Hell, I can’t say I blame them. If given the choice of rolling a rock up a hill for eternity or giving earthlings spiritual advice, which would you choose? Plus if they love being loved by others, they must love the adoration given to them by us. There is another side though. Believe it or not, even the Writings say we can be contacted by good spirits. Really? Yep. Stay tuned.
Todd Beiswenger
Legend has it that when Todd passes on, he we will be an associate spirit to the Phillies left-fielder and hopes that all cars, not dogs, go to heaven. All we know is that Todd is a third year Theological School student who is happily married with one child and is looking forward to his posting in Hurstville, Australia.Wondering about the inspiration for this article? Look up the New Church, which is based on the theological writings of Emanuel Swedenborg.
Reader Comments (21)
Great article, Todd. Are you sure it wasn't dictated to you by an evil spirit? :)
You know, I thought the Writings of Swedenborg taught that it's not actually possible to get articles of faith wrong. That there isn't a wrong faith. All truth is accommodated. Even the truth that we regard as THE TRUTH is accommodated. The caveat or pre-condition is of course a life that is loving and tending for the most toward good.
Even a novel like The Shack (by William Young), with all of its confusing Trinity stuff, still leaves the reader with the basic message that God exists, that there is love, that all living things are connected, that there is eternal life, that forgiveness is divine.
By the way, this Swedenborg guy, he spent a lot of time talking to evil spirits too, didn't he?
Stephen,
Humorous comments, but you got a couple things wrong. :)
I think its a misreading to say Swedenborg said that there isn't a wrong faith or that we can't get it wrong. On the contrary, we often, if not usually get it wrong. Or, as you point out, we always get it wrong to some extent. But this is not to say that "wrong" then becomes meaningless. There is still value in pursuing the truth, even though it is our life according it (or not) which makes the difference.
Perhaps I'm taking your comments to unfair extremes. (But you did state them fairly bluntly).
Brian
Yeah, I apologize for the bluntness. You are right. And so we bring life to a discussion :)
Your feedback makes me ponder, actually I do remember having had conversations with people where I "knew" that what they were saying was "wrong." But I am now taking the standpoint that this was my judgment, my judging of another person's "faith." Even if it truly, truly was wrong, it's not my business, and certainly not my business to judge.
I had many long conversations over many months with a woman who used Pott's Concordance of Swedenborg's Theological Works to help her interpret people's dreams! She also relied on her spirit guide. Eventually she couldn't choose what clothes to wear until her spirit guide told her! It didn't take her long to forswear contacting spirits anymore, having experienced the slow but inexorable enslavement to reliance upon them. The New Church ideas that I had remained consistently steadfast in (while also being inviting, not condemnatory), allowed her to actually see the desperate straits she was in. The process of instruction and then New Church baptism healed her (after some pretty scary possession-like temptation battles!). Scary stuff....
Oh Clark, that's going to make it hard for Todd to write part 2 and 3 of this series. What have you done!
Thanks Todd. I agree we can enjoy and talk about the influence we feel from angelic spirits. I have been blessed by those subtle leadings, and trust them more and more. Thanks for exploring this.
Thanks, Todd! I enjoy your tone. And I appreciate everyone's comments. I look forward to the rest of the series! I like your initial point how funny it is that communicating with spirits and the reality of the spiritual world was so central to Swedenborg's work and yet we (well some people) have such awkwardness about acknowledging spiritual reality.
To relate a simple experience, once I had one of those, "it was so WEIRD, so and so called me just as I was thinking of them" or some such, and a good friend and mentor to me stated plainly, "Well, the spiritual world is real!" Her phrase struck a deep chord in me and since, I've recited that phrase at times to remind myself I need not be surprised when "coincidences" happen, etc., because, well, the spiritual world IS real!
Hi Todd,
As somebody who has watched others go a little too far down the rabbit-hole, I would have to say that I think spirit contact is extremely dangerous. Spirits are smarter than us, not to mention they can see a persons thoughts and some have spent a lot of time learning to bend others thoughts to their own purposes.
Divine Providence says that the Word is a much more effect way to access truth. It is straight from the Lord and doesn’t have a lot of subtle fallacies in its roots that one has to work through later in our life.
I really appreciated what Clark said about the woman he counseled. As a person speaks to spirits they can develop a trust which starts to influence decisions. Things a person thinks and feels from a spirit start to feel revelatory and are joined with an anxiety to do what is being suggested because “God” wants you to do it. Not worth it in my opinion. People can be really hurt by spirit contact and even never fully recover.
Here are some passages that helped me with this topic:
DP 321
“[People] are never instructed what to believe and what to do, and this in order that the human rational principle and human freedom may not perish… All influx from the Lord is effected by enlightenment of the understanding, and by the affection for truth.”
DP 133
The good do not desire miracles, but they believe those recorded in the Word; and if they hear anything concerning a miracle they give it their attention only as an argument of no great weight that confirms their faith; for their thoughts are derived from the Word, consequently from the Lord.
Thanks, Todd, for bringing up a great subject. I do understand that there are a lot of dangerous spirits who would like to strike up an influential conversation with us, but I feel frustrated when there seems to be a “throw the baby out with the bathwater” attitude about any kind of speaking with spirits and angels. Maybe if we all felt more free to talk about such contact, we’d collectively become more skilled at discerning between good and dangerous contact.
It seems to me that any contact with spirits, whether it happens spontaneously or is sought by the person, should follow similar rules to interacting with people on earth. In both cases, don’t let someone else make decisions for you; use your judgment about all that they tell you; question anything they present to you that makes you feel upset or uncomfortable; resist anything they tell you to do that is harmful; don’t let them dominate your life. If a spirit gives you harmful suggestions or tries to control your decisions, then do just what you ought to do with a person on earth doing the same things—don’t hang out with that person anymore! That is most likely an evil spirit.
On the other hand, a good spirit would have no harmful intentions. A good spirit I would think is a spirit with good intentions who is still learning. That, I feel, would be a fine person to be talking to, but still one must use their own judgment, and not let other people make decisions for them. Decisions are often no fun, and it can sometimes seem attractive to find somebody to “just tell you what to do!” But it’s crucial that we learn to make our own decisions. I imagine that it might be a good idea, in the case of advice from a well-intentioned spirit, to treat it like advice from an earthly friend—accept the advice with gratitude, but take time to think for yourself if that really seems the best decision. In the case of Marlene switching from the trucking industry to opening a shop, I get the impression that that idea was one that seemed good to her. If she had absolutely loved the trucking industry and didn’t want to leave, then it might have been a mistake to follow that advice. In the case of the spirit named Abraham, again I’d say treat it like ideas from a person on earth. Take from it what seems useful; don’t take what doesn’t seem useful.
As far as angels go, I get the impression that ideas from angels are so gently put that we will never feel compelled. We can hear or feel a message, but it will never feel like a dictate—only an option.
After my daughter died in 1991, I had a relative who was able to be in contact with angels who were caring for her. This relative was able to be guided to the place my daughter was by an angel guide in order to see what my daughter was doing, and to bring back comforting messages to me. This meant so much to me! I felt frustrated that contact with the spiritual world was such a taboo subject in the General Church. I wrote an article for Theta Alpha Journal asking that we be more open to seeing that there is such a thing as good and useful conscious contact with the spiritual world. This relative was well aware of the dangers, and always made sure to ask humbly for this contact in connection with worship of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Heaven and Hell 250 states that “Conversation with angels is not granted, though, except to people who are focused on truths from good intent, especially people who acknowledge the Lord and the divine nature within his human nature, because this is the truth in which heaven exists.” I suppose that in the case of people of different religions or spiritualities, this would apply to their own concept of a loving, and thus human, God.
Heaven and Hell 249 does state that “Talking with spirits is rarely allowed nowadays, though, because it is dangerous.” But that was written over 200 years ago! Just as with Swedenborg’s statement that “Conjugial Love is rare at this day,” I believe that has to be changing over time. In fact, we are promised that Conjugial Love will be re-established on earth, and so that process must be well on its way by now, 200 years later. I believe the same goes for the possibility for healthy contact with the spiritual world. The spiritual world is sure different than the mess it was back when Swedenborg was writing, right at the time of the Last Judgement. It seems to me, if we apply common sense about what is a good or harmful influence, safe contact can be a lot more possible now than back then.
Well, that was a very long-winded comment! I myself have never yet had conscious contact with someone in the spiritual world, but I love hearing stories from people who have. :)
Wow! Lots of comments here. I go away for the weekend and look what happens!
At this point I won't say too much though, because parts 2 & 3 do address a lot of the comments. I do acknowledge the warnings given, but to me that side of the story gets all the discussion. One of the inspirations for this series was an encounter with a General Church member about a year ago. She's probably about 70 years old, and basically said that she's afraid of having a visitation from her deceased husband because she KNOWS it would only be an evil spirit contacting her. RUBBISH I say! But it's not just my opinion, the Writings do allow for that. Not to mention how depressing of an outlook that is to believe that the ONLY contact ever made is with evil spirits. So it was time to bust up some of the myths around spirit contact.
Anyway, I really appreciate everybody's comments. It is a great affirmation that the subject is relevant, not just for me, but all of the other readers as well. I hope y'all enjoy the rest of the series.
Hi Todd,
If one studies Swedenborg's "Journal Of Dreams" it becomes evident that the 'otherworldy' process he went through was difficult and dangerous. Swedenborg himself said he was "called" for this specific purpose. I'm sure many of us have had some glimpse or message from the 'other side' which, if it came unsolicitated, falls within Providence.
In Swedenborg's "Journal Of Dreams" he recounts an experience where he tried to make contact with the 'spiritual world' when he wasn't exactly prepared. He found himself speaking to a lifeless "spectre" which frightened him. The dream was telling him he (Swedenborg) was that "lifeless" shell, and that of himself he was powerless, and should not attempt to communicate in that realm without the Lord!
I believe that the Lord grants us some profound, 'otherworldy' experience only when it serves a good purpose. If it is not within the Lord's Providence, one is left to his own "proprium", and spirits will wreak havoc.
In a way, conversing through a comment system on this blog is conversing with spirits. I can't see you, yet I am addressing you. Oh, the dangers of blogging... :)
Great job at stirring up the nest, Todd. Interesting thing I noticed is that all commentators that support the direction of your article are women, whereas all those against it are men. Which gives me an idea. After you have published part 2 and 3 of this series on Talking With Evil Spirits, why don't you start another 3-part series on Women In The Priesthood?
Hi Frank,
My main difficulty in using the Journal of Dreams is that it is a pre-Last Judgment work. I encourage New Church people to not underestimate what a huge difference it makes to be in a post-Last Judgment world. Not only that, but Journal of Dreams was written before Swedenborg started writing the Writings, so while I believe it to be an interesting book, it carries with it no authority the way the Writings do.
Anyway, thanks for commenting and I hope you stay tuned for the rest of the series.
Todd
Hi, Todd. I can see a use, with some caution, in sharing "touched by an angel" sort of experiences, or NDE's, or contacts near the time of death. But the fact that the spirit in the story called himself Abraham reminds me of Luke 16, The Rich Man and Lazarus, where the rich man begs "father Abraham" to send Lazarus to testify to his 5 brothers left behind, lest they come into "this place of torment." At the end of the parable Abraham (the real one) says, "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead." We have the Word. We don't need spirit-contact. Spiritism has been a big problem in the short history of the New Church, perhaps especially in France and Brazil -- a big distraction from the life-saving teachings of the Heavenly Doctrine.
In case you don't have these passages handy, to help you with parts 2 & 3, you might look up AC 1880:4, 5863, 8118, HH 249-250 with footnotes, DLW 257, DP 321:3, SE 3781, De Verbo 13
To close, here's AC 5863:
If evil spirits perceived that they are with man, and that they are spirits separate from him, and if they could flow into what is of his body, they would try to destroy him in a thousand ways, for they hold man in deadly hatred. And as they knew that I was a man in the body, they were in a continual effort to destroy me, not only as to the body, but especially as to the soul; for to destroy man and any spirit is the very delight of life of all those who are in hell; but I have been continually protected by the Lord. From this it is evident how dangerous it is for man to be in living company with spirits, unless he is in the good of faith.
Lawson,
Thank you for adding paragraph AC 5863 from the 'writings' which confirms Swedenborg's experience he recounts in his "Journal Of Dreams".
Stephen,
Because we are granted "free-will", you have the right to 'bean-count' how many men and women agree or disagree, no matter how obnoxious and offensive your gender-warfare comment is.
I happened to find Karen Child's comments thought-provoking, but did not want to patronize her as you do. You're in no way obligated to stick to the subject, as your comment proved.
Hey Frank, I think you may have misread my intention. I am actually in favor of women in the priesthood, just like I am in favor of discussing the possibility of contact with angels and spirits. But I can see how my comments can be misread that way, particularly if you don't know me personally. Sorry.
Stephen,
I apologize if I misunderstood you, and I think you're a good guy.
Sorry we disagree on both issues. Regarding the possibility of contact with angels and spirits, I agree with a lot
of your ideas, except I believe Swedenborg's warning against such contact is dangerous.
I myself have had some profound spiritual experiences which include angels, but they were unsolicitated. I empathize with Karin's desire to communicate with loved ones who've passed. I also think she made an excellent point by comparing the rarity of conjugial love with communication with the spiritual world. However, conjugial love and spiritual sight existed among celestial people. Nowadays, we have serious 'regeneration' issues that require hidden mysteries of the Divine Providence which must not be interfered with.
Even Swedenborg needed permission from the Lord alone when answering people's requests to hear from deceased loved ones, because, he said only God knows whether a particular communication would interfere with his Providence.
Stephen, sorry for the misunderstanding and please accept my extended hand in friendship, considering we have the same ends in view.
Thank you, Frank. Your friendship is completely accepted. Different views are also accepted, they are just views and communicating what we believe is hard at the best of times.
No worries here about Stephen's comments about women in the priesthood. I have met him, and I knew just what he was meaning to say. :) But thank you, Frank, for your kind concern about it.
Another problem I see that tends to stifle free conversation on this subject is: how does one define "permission from the Lord"? Does it only apply to spiritual experiences that come completely out of the blue? Many people practice meditation during worship. Worshipful meditation clears the mind and opens a person to feeling the presence of God and the spiritual realm. Meditation can lead to more awareness of the spiritual realm even, for some people, to the point of having visions. Does this make meditating an unwise practice? Not at all, in my opinion. The very fact that the vision happened could be seen as permission from the Lord. Not everyone who meditates has a vision, by a long shot!
From what I've read in the Writings and near-death experience stories, evil spirits can't stand to be in the presence of humble and heartfelt worship of the Lord. Wilson Van Dusen advocated meditation as a spiritual practice that fits very well with Swedenborgian Christianity. Van Dusen was also very aware of the conniving ways of evil spirits, since he studied the affect of evil spirits on the mentally ill. And yet, I'm not aware that Van Dusen ever warned against worshipful meditation.
I have heard from people who had visions start while they were in worshipful meditation. Therefore, if they ever meditate again, they know that might happen again. Is this "seeking contact"? It is certainly engaging in activity that could allow contact to happen. If one is aware of possible dangers and is keeping the Lord strongly in his or her mind, I just can't see that this is something a person would have to avoid. Meditation for many people is a beautiful part of their worship and spiritual practice.
The relative I mentioned, who has been taken by an angel guide many times to speak with my daughter in the spiritual world—she has asked her angel guide, "why is this allowed?" The answer was, "Because it can serve a useful purpose." I like to look at the "fruits" of the experience to see if it was a good or bad thing to happen. Comfort, reassurance, hope—all good fruits that come from many spiritual experiences. When bad fruits come about, then that's a strong signal to find a way to stop the contact.
I do respect the fact that those who warn of the dangers are trying to keep people safe. But as Todd said, I wish it wasn't so one-sided. It could be that people who have gotten into trouble from messy spiritual experiences and need help come forward with their stories, but people who have had beautiful experiences keep it more quiet, for fear of being reprimanded or not believed. Therefore, we'd have more bad stories in the public awareness than good ones. Again, I feel if there was more open and equal discussion of both sides, we'd all be able to learn from it and be smarter about it.
I have talked with people who had visions come to them when they were children. Also, there are indeed cultures that are more inclined to spiritism as a spiritual practice than others. Rather than squelching the very natures of such people, I would rather see them educated and guided to be able to avoid the dark sides and thus go toward the light sides.
If I could find the article I wrote for TAJ years ago, I would rediscover the passages in Swedenborg's works that I saw as supportive of healthy conscious contact between the worlds—a kind of contact that achieves useful, loving purposes rather than unhealthy or idle ones. Since I believe that the New Church age promised in the Word and by Swedenborg is coming, I expect that healthy contact between the worlds will increase. But again, all I'm wishing for now is for people to able to talk more openly about good experiences without fear of being reprimanded.
Contact with spirits:
1) We are all in contact with spirits all the time. Every thought and feeling we experience is contact with spirits. If we did not have contact with spirits we would fall down dead. (Heaven and Hell 302)
2) We are not conscious of this contact because we are not conscious. The Lord designed us to live in consciousness of the spirit world and of Him; we have chosen for many generations to focus our consciousness on the physical world and ourselves. In my rash youth I used to enjoy reading Stephen Gaskin, who said that we are all telepathic & know what each other means, but every time we lie we make ourselves less conscious, less telepathic. (Gaskin also said the Eleventh Commandment is, "You do too know what I mean.")
3) If the consciousness of spirits one is seeking be sensual or corporeal contact--like seeing & hearing, speaking earthly language, getting advice on worldly/temporal matters, predicting the future, letting them act through one's body--of course the spirits one contacts will be sensual or corporeal (thus hellish) spirits--that's just logical. If one contact them because he wants something for himself, like to feel special or to have power over other people's lives, spirits of self-worship and domination are the kind he'll get, I'd bet.
4) If we try instead to be more aware of what we're thinking and feeling, and recognize that none of it belongs to us, but attribute the good to the Lord and the evil to hell, we will attain freedom, consciousness, innocence, charity, and maybe even eventually open awareness of the spirit world, without ever "seeking contact with spirits."